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# Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 1322

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## Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

One thing no one has mentioned is that when a contractor last year took those core samples, it appears they cored right through rebar. I always thought this was a no-no. In fact, Surfside sent out guidelines to building owners stating to use GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) first before taking core samples, to avoid hitting rebar. It is no strange coincidence to me that the core sample which penetrated the rebar was taken just inches to the left of column M11.1, right next to the planter box. You have seen me point out in several of my videos since June about how they left that core site open with Bob's barricade there, and in some other MLS photos, seems like no covering was ever put back on the 3' x 3' exploration site. these core sites are required to be filled back in and returned to the state they were in before the sampling, pretty much the same day if possible.

Basement Floor (lowest level below-grade)
o Perform GPR (ground penetrating radar) to determine slab thickness and to locate
reinforcing steel, if reinforced (conventional slab on ground or reinforced slab on
ground).
o, Take one set of three concrete cores (after GPR to avoid reinforcing steel) for
compressive strength testing per AC! standards and one core for petrographic
examination per ICRI standards. Repair cored holes in accordance with ICRI industry
standards.
o GPR column for vertical reinforcing steel and lateral ties (measuring spacing) for the full
height of that lift. Verify vertical column reinforcing splices,
o Take one VA" diameter maximum 3"-depth core In column (after GPR to avoid
reinforcing steel) for compressive strength testing per ACI standards and petrographic
examination per ICRI standards. Immediately repair cored holes in accordance with ICRI
industry standards.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Re theories and mechanisms lost to the voluminous scroll:

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

built us a spreadsheet to capture views succinctly in one place, but not many people have availed themselves. She may have locked it now but you can request access within the document by pulling down the view only button at the top. For Charlie not to spend the rest of his life relaunching this thread I suggest we re-engage with this, if Maud has not given up and gone fishing long ago.

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Rebar damaged by cores
Case in point, that topic has come up a few times, but you'd have to dig back now to see it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Its not unusual for a core sample to break apart when drilling it. Especially if you were to hit rebar on the way through it. The broken core samples tend to break right at the rebar.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Its not unusual for a core sample to break apart when drilling it)

This has not been my experience... generally cores with rebar come out intact, and generally not fractured at the location of the rebar. If they do break at the rebar, the halves have neat surfaces. It may have been that due to corrosion issues and the expansion of the corrosion products that the concrete was compromised at the junction.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

In that environment, 40 years is too long... more like every 10 years. The engineer also has to note if there is anything that requires immediate or very near future repairs and this has to be on file with the municipality.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Surfside sent out guidelines to building owners stating to use GPR

The requirements you're citing were in the "Properties East of Collins Avenue Structural Assessment Recommendations Letter" dated July 7, 2021, advised by Kilsheimer in the wake of the CTS collapse. I don't know what Surfside's requirements for core samples are/were in the period before June 24, has anyone been able to find that? Something tells me that common procedure was not so exhaustive, at least in practice...and even if that was the protocol, I highly doubt it was ever enforced. It obviously wasn't here, as clearly shown in the engineer's own documentation.

From the document "20201014bodminutesapproved", per Morabito's memo dated October 13, 2020 (Re: Champlain Towers South Condominium – Phase IIA, Summary of Work Performed) "At completion of the investigative work CPR restored each exploratory (and core) location back to its original condition." The attached and marked up plan sheet S2A-1.1 is more detailed in the scope for each core sample site, GPR wasn't mentioned. I'm not sure if that's what the memo refers to when it says "The
results of exploratory demolition and the additional core work are summarized in the attached “CTS Test Probe
Notes” file" or if that's a document that hasn't been released? I don't recall having seen it but that doesn't mean much.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

The rest of the notes from S2A-1.1...I can't extract the individual sheet at the moment, I can do so later on today for anyone who doesn't want to go on a pdf scavenger hunt.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (AusG)

…built us a spreadsheet to capture views succinctly in one place, but not many people have availed themselves.

Thanks, AusG. I was about to bring this up again myself. We have a self-serve repository that few have used. If more would use it, it would act as a summary of the lengthy discussions on these many pages. Anyone can view the spreadsheet. And anyone can use the entry form to add to it. The only thing anyone needs me for is to sort it, as I am the only person with edit privileges.

This Google Form Engineering Input Form automagically writes to the CTS Collapse spreadsheet!

Procedure

1. Complete and submit the Engineering Input Form
Screen Name
Type
Design
Engineering
Construction
Inspection
Maintenance
Repair
Failure Sequence
Failure Trigger
Other (free form text entry)
Sub-type (free form text entry)
Theory/Hypothesis <short description>
Proven Evidence
Possible Evidence Not Yet Proven
Argument Against

Tip: Check the spreadsheet to see if your Theory is already listed. If it is, use the same Type, Sub-Type, and Theory/Hypothesis so that sorting will place your entry by the previous listing. There is no limit on how many listings a particular theory may have.

2. Review the CTS Collapse spreadsheet to see your entry/entries and everyone else’s entries.

We will use the Type/Sub-type fields as organizers. This will allow us to sort the spreadsheet so that related items will appear next to each other. This will be more efficient than human intervention to organize separate tabs, although we could also do that after we end submissions.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 05:47)

One thing no one has mentioned is that when a contractor last year took those core samples, it appears they cored right through rebar. I always thought this was a no-no.
... was hashed out long ago here. That's why we post post links to the previous parts of this thread at the top of every part!

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (AutisticBez (Computer)7 Sep 21 07:33)

Its not unusual for a core sample to break apart when drilling it. Especially if you were to hit rebar on the way through it. The broken core samples tend to break right at the rebar.
Dik has already spoken to this. It's the quality of the break that tells the story. This is not a new break caused by drilling, it's an old break (potentially caused by rebar expanding, due to salt water intrusion.) and since it appears to have happened at most of the cores, it leads to the suspicion that a lot of the structural pool slab delaminated.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

The green thing in the Tiktok pic looks like the patio chair and green cushion from unit 111.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

In the case of that one core that I had brought up that was next to the planter, that likely has very little to do with salt water intrusion in fact probably close to zero. If that is on the pool deck there's no soil under it there's no way for saltwater to get to it, it's strictly from rainfall and water pooling on the pool deck over the years. I would also really love to know where it was that they originally made repairs in 1996, that morabito found in 2018 that could really give us a clue as to where there was some weak and concrete that would be much more weaker than other areas around it. Because in 1996 they were claiming they had to fix almost 500 square feet of cracks which is amazing after only 15 years of life.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Cores taken from around or under planters would be repair work they show, and very minimal original concrete.

Perhaps it's not delamination, but just lack of adhesion of repair layers.

*shrugs*

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (demented)

Cores taken from around or under planters would be repair work they show and very minimal original concrete.

That is likely untrue. Because from what we can gather they did not remove any of the concrete from the pool deck, there were cracks all over the place, that in 1996 they repaired the concrete using epoxy injections. This apparently was done by somebody that did not know what they were doing, and they actually left several of the injection ports into the ceiling and never sanded them down and primed and painted or anything to help seal it up afterward. And so these often left to even more cracks developing. but we have not seen any evidence anywhere that suggests that they removed any of the original pool deck concrete and replaced it. Do you have any information on that? Are there any permits that were pulled or any drawings that show the work that they were supposedly doing on that?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Yes, drawings, permits, engineers notes, inspections, inspection notes, BOM's, ect.

It's been gone over in threads past. It was a fuckerclust of pumped and bagged concrete in the 9" slump range, repair mortar, and epoxy/foam injection. Rebar inspection and replacement too.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (arbitraria (Civil/Environmental)7 Sep 21 14:10)

"Properties East of Collins Avenue Structural Assessment Recommendations Letter" dated July 7, 2021
From the document "20201014bodminutesapproved", per Morabito's memo dated October 13, 2020 (Re: Champlain Towers South Condominium – Phase IIA, Summary of Work Performed)

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)7 Sep 21 04:56)

I could not find:
"Minutes of BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING held Wednesday, October 14th, 2020 at 7:00 PM"
in the City of Surfside Archive, but NPR had a link to the .pdf
in a memo sent to the condo board in October 2020

My trick for getting a single page of a pdf is to print the page with the printer set to: "Microsoft print to pdf"
Minutes of BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING held Wed October 14th, 2020 at 7-00 PM sheets 43,44 of 83.pdf

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

In the case of that one core that I had brought up that was next to the planter, that likely has very little to do with salt water intrusion in fact probably close to zero.

Aren’t any exterior surfaces where water pools or accumulates in coastal environments subject to salt water intrusion? It would seem to me that the air there is somewhat laden with salt (sea spray) and anywhere it does not runoff from, it will be concentrated with every wetting and drying cycle.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 15:58)

In the case of that one core that I had brought up that was next to the planter, that likely has very little to do with salt water intrusion in fact probably close to zero. If that is on the pool deck there's no soil under it there's no way for saltwater to get to it, it's strictly from rainfall and water pooling on the pool deck over the years.
Jeff, It's a block from the beach. You know, I know, everybody knows, salt air plus rain equal salt rain. You can Taste it in the air. It corrodes aircraft at Miami International, a lot farther inland than this...
The ocean runs in the streets...
Nop, no flooding here:
Thursday Night's Rain Caused Street Flooding On Miami Beach
...ever heard of storm surge?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
My Theory:
The pool deck delaminated. The concrete corroded to the point that it got so weak that it could no longer hold onto the columns. It was not traditional punching-shear*. There was no, let me call it a "top hat", of slab on top of the column.
Enough of the pool deck structural slab failed that it's "catenary action" (pull) rotated the slab drop under the south face of the north wing. (1979 plans 31 of 336)
The slab drop failed from "M" to at least "K" or "I" so that it was possible for the entire center of the south face to fall intact.
This tilted the floors and roof, which in turn though "catenary action" pulled the rest of the north wing down on top of itself.

*punching-shear-punching-shear-flat-slabs

#### Quote (CivilDigital.com – The Civil Engineering Website)

What is Punching Shear? Punching Shear in Flat Slabs
July 17, 2014 by Anand Paul
What is Punching Shear?
Punching shear is a type of failure of reinforced concrete slabs subjected to high localized forces. In flat slab structures this occurs at column support points. The failure is due to shear. This type of failure is catastrophic because no visible signs are shown prior to failure. Punching shear failure disasters have occurred several times in this past decade. An example of punching shear failure can be see in image.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
The Trigger:
The Trigger is building a condo on the beach next to the Atlantic Ocean.
Not because of the sand, but because the Atlantic Ocean is full of water so bitter that when I got some of it in my mouth, I threw up; because the Atlantic Ocean is so huge and soaks up the Sun's energy, and creates hurricanes that suck up salt water into the sky where the salt has no place to go, but to come back down as the bitter rain.

Trigger #2:
Trigger number 2 is that some of us humans are unwilling to spend money to keep us humans safe;
Unwilling to spend the money to build it safe, unwilling to spend the money to keep it safe.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

My former condo 7 miles inland has all sorts of rebar rusting and spalling and it is nowhere near the coast. So while salt intrusion might be present I think the far bigger threat is the freshwater rains of any water type that soak into the concrete. Any pool deck that is over a garage and not built on the ground is not seeing salt water intrusion from the water table, because it is elevated off the foundation below it. Plain and simple this pool deck had water pooling for some time, we even saw numerous MLS photos I have shown where water was sitting there on sunny days with nowhere to go. Everyone wants to keep blaming it solely on the ocean, but think of it as only a contributing factor. Note these photos below showing standing water or stains, and pooling water on concrete is worse than anything else because concrete is a sponge to water.

.

.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 18:06)

My former condo 7 miles inland has all sorts of rebar rusting and spalling and it is nowhere near the coast. So while salt intrusion might be present I think the far bigger threat is the freshwater rains of any water type that soak into the concrete.
I'm not saying that Florida rain doesn't rot concrete. It does!
I'm just saying that hurricanes carry salt way inland. I know condos are your business. Concrete in Florida and I don't know where else is going to rot if it is not waterproofed, and I think that's what you're saying also?

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 18:06)

pooling water on concrete is worse than anything else because concrete is a sponge to water.
Yes! Drainage around any structure anywhere is of primary importance. ... and checking the slope of anything exposed to the weather also, decks, walks, patios...

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

Charlie - notice the size of the remaining slab atop the column - particularly relative to the column ? It appears the Piper's Row Car Park slab had drop panels at the columns.
Note that image having what looks like a 4 foot square section of slab remaining and compare that to any of the columns at CTS pool deck area after the slab dropped.
There was likely the delamination and rusty reinforcing as you suggest, and ( I suspect ) VERY weak concrete likely due to the effects of chloride damage to the slab.
I await compression test results of core samples and a chemical analysis to show the chloride content. I am not sure the concrete I have seen in the pics can be effectively analysed using petrographic examination.
Thanks,

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Theres a number of parking parkades here in Calgary showing seriously exposed badly corroded rebar. Calgary is 1000 kilometres from the ocean. I dont think anyone has suggested salt in the air is the cause. Might want to revaluate how critical / relevant this salty discussion is.v

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Piper's Row Car Park did not have drop [panels, they had the typical punching shear perimeter at each column, which Champlain for example had 16 #5 rebars in a line across each column if I remember correctly. Piper's Row Car Park used a lift slab method and anchored to the column with wedges.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Regarding saltiness of the water - yes, the sea will spray in that far sometimes, but rain isn't generally salty, even on the coast.

But do you guys use salt over there in winter to keep snow and ice off exposed surfaces? Because if you do, that would result in saltwater being put into exposed slabs like a pool deck for sure.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (miningman (Mining))

Do they never use salt on the streets in the winter?

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical))

So it was not the concrete thickness that defined the quite regular rectangular failure perimeter. Too much reinforcing terminated at one location?
Thanks,

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Vance Wiley (Structural)7 Sep 21 18:41)

I am not sure the concrete I have seen in the pics can be effectively analyzed using petrographic examination.
Yep! You're right

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Red Corona (Computer)7 Sep 21 19:14)

But do you guys use salt over there in winter
In Florida? ...not sure they know what that is. (Winter is what they call it when the snowbirds arrive from Canada
I was driving home from Huntsville Alabama and it snowed. They were (resourcefully) spreading gravel on the roads...

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Winter is what we call those 2 weeks of 50*F before it's hot again. Other than beach sand, there's no salt on our streets.

@Jeff Ostroff
What makes that standing water situation worse is the fact that the drains on the deck were known to be inop damn near all the time, especially when the building next door was being built. Water pooling for days on the deck, especially in shades areas closest to the building, was a constant resident complaint.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

I mean, I wouldn't call a broken core sample a reason to evac the building. I would call it further investigation. Like maybe perform further inspection to see the full extent?

To me, a failing pool deck might be the trigger, but it shouldn't have pulled the building down. Thats a design flaw. The pool deck should be designed to shear away from building. The beams at edge of building acted to prevent the isolated collapse of pool deck which might have taken no lifes, had it just sheared off.

This to me reminds me of my failing outdoor patio roof. Its a semi water proof covering. The wooden structure is rotten and failing. Its future collapse wouldn't be a problem except for the strong connections to the roof of the house.

Landlord says they will remove structure after it fails, but if part of the roof comes away, the property itself might be condemned due to old age.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (AutisticBez (Computer)7 Sep 21 23:45)

To me, a failing pool deck might be the trigger, but it shouldn't have pulled the building down.
Yes.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

A main reason for the slab failure and then the building was months of vibrations from the new Condo being built next door. Basically continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength.
If someone here can do the calc on the patio detaching from the step beam that may solve part of the puzzle.
The step beam was damaged by the ripping apart of the BM A planter supports.
Along with an elevation change at the step beam which took 12" depth away. All this is enough.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
Catenary Action
To me, a Catenary is a curve, but I first heard it applied to the overhead power wire used on the Pennsylvania Railroad. The support wire hangs in, yes, a Catenary.
To the best of my knowledge, the curve was discovered by an architect and a scientist trying to build the world's largest dome. They found that if they piled rocks in the shape of a Catenary, the thrust of the weight of the rocks was down through the legs of the Catenary. The biggest example I know of is the Saint Louis Arch.
With chain the pull/thrust is in the opposite direction. Pulling sideways on the ends of the chain pulls the center up. Imagine a chain of chunks of concrete sand and pavers strung on rebar. The chain pulls sideways on whatever it is anchored in. In this case that's the bottom of the south slab drop (step beam) of the north wing. The pull on the bottom tends to rotate the drop (step beam).
Another potentially counter action is that if beams anchored to the drop (step beam) at the north end and a column at their south end, lose the support of the column, they twist the drop (step beam) in the opposite rotation. Twisting concrete is a great way to break it.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

A main reason for the slab failure and then the building was months of vibrations from the new Condo being built next door. Basically continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength.

I guess that explains why they have never successfully built buildings close together in New York City.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

The unusual pencil-sharpening of the columns is to me a critical feature. Poor concrete, poor rebar placement or something else. It stands out and has to get a mention in any logical assessment of the collapse.

Re the core drilling. Morabitos specs for core drilling stated (somewhere) that structural reinforcing should be avoided. This below was posted by Lizard7709 back in thread 4 but the exact source was not stated

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (AusG (Petroleum)8 Sep 21 01:51)

Re the core drilling. Morabitos specs for core drilling stated (somewhere) that structural reinforcing should avoided.
This is from:
8777-collins-avenue---preliminary-review-plans-for-40-year-re-certification.pdf (sheet 2)
Which can be downloaded from the City of Surfside Champlain Towers Public Records & Media Information
Use the Sherlock Homes looking glass to search for "40 year" for example.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

"...requesting approval prior to cutting any bars."

Bars appear to have been cut. Was there approval?

I ask not because I think it contributed to the fall, but because I would really like to hear about someone involved who did a Really Good Job. I like people who do Really Good Jobs. Warms my little heart, it does.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (spsalso)

It says "Shall" on the Plan ... shall means shall, no?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

"Hilti Ferroscan, GPR, x-ray, chipping or other means" - selective demolition being "other means"?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (spsalso)

"...requesting approval prior to cutting any bars."

Bars appear to have been cut. Was there approval?

I ask not because I think it contributed to the fall, but because I would really like to hear about someone involved who did a Really Good Job. I like people who do Really Good Jobs. Warms my little heart, it does.

spsalso
Assuming the GPR was run with an engineer on site as is claimed, I think we have a job done well here. More gooder if you prefer.

More holes were to be drilled after these first odd ones. A series of them on nearly all sides of the pool, extending south from core A and east from core B. But those never were done because of the situation where the board required the pool to remain open and in use at all times during season and more samples were going to be taken when the alternate parking was established in the back lot and side of the building on the access road.

Edit:
Probably late on these. Just noticed Surfside dropped more records at the end of August.
https://surfside.one/public-records-search/
Mostly just more interior demolition, marble tile, and hurricane windows/doors.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)8 Sep 21 10:09)

Just noticed Surfside dropped more records at the end of August.
Thanks for the update from reality, and thanks for the update on the archive!

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Has anyone else who's looked at the permits noticed the handwriting similarities between one engineering firm that did a lot of restoration work and the town permit reviewer?
I do not want to go down that hole but I'm sure someone will. Not that it even matters. Just more conflicts if true that'd still be keeping this a crime scene and the Town out.
I'm gunna shut up now.
It's been bugging me since this morning and please someone squash that thought.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)8 Sep 21 16:23)

Has anyone else who's looked at the permits noticed the handwriting similarities between one engineering firm that did a lot of restoration work and the town permit reviewer?
Is it possible the firm just phoned it in, and the reviewer signed for the engineer? (should have initialed it) Still probably not legal (not binding in court), But if he did the work and then said "Yep, I'm sure I did a good job.” then I'm sure there is some wittier quote than “blind to one’s own mistakes”.
(not enough coffee yet this morning)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

I think we are dealing with deflection and shear in the failed beams not cantenary actions.
If the BM A detached from the step beam we could be dealing with shear and maybe a moment applied to the drop beam even though the max M would be at the support still functioning. But even so the drop beams was too small especially behind the planter and was sheared off in some manner.
The smallest step beam I found could have been 12" x 13.5" near column O.
As someone questioned the buildings close together in NYC. That is a Gneiss bedrock a little more solid that a liquefaction situation at CTS. This soil was vibrated continuously for a long period of time according to the residents.
To avoid lawsuits tying up the sale I would suspect this will be suppressed.
We know the mayor is insane saying this collapse was an act of god.
All bets are off.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

That is a Gneiss bedrock a little more solid that a liquidfaction situation at CTS.

Please feel free to post some solid evidence of that happening here.
Perhaps a research paper describing "continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength" caused by nearby construction or pile driving causing building collapse by liquefaction.

Sounds more like liquidfiction...

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

> The unusual pencil-sharpening of the columns is to me a critical feature.

It's certainly atypical for a puncture shear - normally the slab shears and leaves a piece of itself behind, but here it almost looks like it was the column that failed first. And the slab's rebar should have run through the column and made that clean failure impossible, too.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Red Corona (Computer)8 Sep 21 17:47)

it almost looks like it was the column that failed first
Well, the columns, in most cases, are still standing, but if one looks at the fracture of the top of the column, it almost looks like a cold joint. It is not, if one zooms in, one see the barest hint of white aggregate. The planar failure reminds me of the core samples. The failure stretches from rebar to rebar. Spalding?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (if one zooms in, one see the barest hint of white aggregate)

Charlie - I think you are onto something. Most punching shear failures leave concrete from the slab on top of the columns. The pics of the UK parking structure show that. Four way flat slabs have tension on the bottom face, and therefore probably cracks, over most of their area, due to the positive moments. And they have tension on the top face at the columns, due to the negative moments there. The probable tension zones are reinforced to address/resist the moments, and that means placing reinforcing near the top of the slab over columns.
Compressive stresses in concrete can assist in resisting the entry of water (but not make it impermeable). Tension cracks welcome water.
While the slab over the top of the columns was the high point (unless drainage slopes prevented this) the overlay materials and the low slopes to drain could have created cases where the slabs over the columns were saturated also. The cracking there would have allowed that moisture into the slab and caused the concrete to deteriorate. If that deterioration led to the loss of strength in the concrete the negative moment strength would be reduced.
Now imagine, if you will, the reinforcing passing over the top of the column, and being pulled downward by the anchorage in the slab - and finally reaching the point of being an anchorage to the catenary tension in the reinforcing. The bars pass over the columns and the corners of the column must support the load in bearing - and maybe fail from that unintended force.
So the corners become "rounded", if you will, and demonstrate the effects of spalling..
Just speculation, but maybe it will provide some mental image of a possibility. We can see the results, this is what I think is one possible reason.
Can't wait to see results of concrete strengths from many locations in this (that) structure.
Thanks,

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Demented)

Has anyone else who's looked at the permits noticed the handwriting similarities between one engineering firm that did a lot of restoration work and the town permit reviewer?

From the New York Times, August 25, 2021:

"Records show that the Surfside building department delegated inspections of the towers back to the Champlain Towers builders, who tapped their own engineer to sign off on construction work."

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Vance Wiley)

The bars pass over the columns and the corners of the column must support the load in bearing - and maybe fail from that unintended force.
So the corners become "rounded", if you will, and demonstrate the effects of spalling..

I am perhaps misreading this, but it sounds like the corners were "rounded" by the bars passing them as the slab descended.

If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (spsalso)

From the New York Times, August 25, 2021:

"Records show that the Surfside building department delegated inspections of the towers back to the Champlain Towers builders, who tapped their own engineer to sign off on construction work."

spsalso

Unrelated to the original builders, unless an original team of engineers is what disbanded.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

/

#### Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical) 8 Sep 21 17:45 Quote (ChiefInspectorJ) Please feel free to post some solid evidence of that happening here. Perhaps a research paper describing "continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength" caused by nearby construction or pile driving causing building collapse by liquefaction. Sounds more like liquidfiction...)

https://www.prosperlaw.com/what-caused-champlain-t...
https://www.foundationprosfl.com/best-soil-types-f...
You see this is the problem in Florida with people like Electrical Engineers ( not you Jeff) doing Structural Engineering. As a Building official I have referred many of theses cases to the board.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.)

The should have been somewhere and that will show whether this was what happened or not. Wonder which pile they are in?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

1. Those links are infomercials and PR by lawyers, and a communications grad at a geotech company
2. if anything liquefied from pile driving at the next door site, why would it not show up first at the next door site? At CTS the floor pan and column roots are intact. The question stands: what liquified, where and why?
3. The subsurface at CTS is I believe lime sand. This can dissolve and make caverns but has grain-on-grain framework so it doesn't liquefy. You need to show us a liquefiable layer exists and then some evidence that something actually liquefied.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

https://www.prosperlaw.com/what-caused-champlain-t...
https://www.foundationprosfl.com/best-soil-types-f...
You see this is the problem in Florida with people like Electrical Engineers ( not you Jeff) doing Structural Engineering. As a Building official I have referred many of theses cases to the board.

An opinion piece from a lawyer, and a foundation company describing soil types in Florida are not the solid evidence that supports your claims.

I have never pretended to do structural engineering. I have not presented any claims as to what caused the collapse of CTS. But you, the Internet's Chief Inspector J made a claim that you don't seem to be able to back up with any real evidence or facts.
We have been over the the theory of vibrations from exploding ordnance, jets taking off from MIA, construction next door, and even tar kettles and found all these theories totally lacking in being able to explain all of the events on the timeline or to be of sufficient magnitude to cause this collapse. And most of the discussions were shut down by actual Structural Engineers on this site. You could spend some time reading up on the first 12 pages.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Vance Wiley)

This one has both rounded column and dropped slab preserved, at least until they collapsed the remaining part of the building. That visible lower loop of rebar may be a culprit for ripping out the side of the column, but who knows?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Vance Wiley)

Can't wait to see results of concrete strengths from many locations in this (that) structure.

We know so far that there are aggregates missing in some of the core pictures and the NIST photos of the columns.

The guys who drilled the columns to demolish the western part of the building said the drill went through it way too easily.

Moribito was getting some "curious results" but won't say what.

It's safe to say at least some of the concrete in the building was well below spec. It's just a matter of how much of it and how bad that needs to be determined. It certainly will clear a lot up if it turns out bad enough to be a major contributing factor.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (AusG (Petroleum)9 Sep 21 01:20)

This one has both rounded column and dropped slab preserved
I like your photo choice. It is late enough at night that I confused dropped slab with slab drop, sorry
Please use your favorite drawing tool to circle or outline the items mentioned above, so we all know we are talking about the same thing.
Thanks

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

and I had a nice PPT all ready to go...

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias)

Aggregate
I too believe the concrete will prove to be sub spec, but I believe aggregate is there, but made of pale grey soft local limestone: so almost no colour or mechanical contrast to the concrete. I may be naïve but I find it difficult to see a concrete company turning up with a sand slurry and not one responsible individual caring.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical) 9 Sep 21 01:02)

An opinion piece from a lawyer, and a foundation company describing soil types in Florida are not the solid evidence that supports your claims.

That lawyer seems to be presenting themselves as an expert in geotechnical engineering and offering theories which imply some degree of certainty, with no citations to actual experts in the field.

"Absent an act of terrorism, the most likely cause of the building’s collapse was either a construction defect or a foundation failure likely caused by soil liquefaction."

They've skipped over more prominent theories put forth by experts so far, i.e. design defects and structural degradation over time.

Maybe it doesn't rise to a level of professional misconduct, but nobody should view this as a legitimate source.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (AusG (Petroleum)9 Sep 21 03:08)

Quote (SFCharlie)
and I had a nice PPT all ready to go...
Go for it! I'll race ya'
I already loaded that photo into PPT and now I'm trying to blowup the cap of each column.
I'm so tired, I'm pretty sure I won't finish tonight.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (CE3527)

That lawyer seems to be presenting themselves as an expert in geotechnical engineering and offering theories which imply some degree of certainty, with no citations to actual experts in the field.

Unscrupulous people often post current news items to get more people to visit their site. The more traffic they get equals more name recognition for these lawyers which pays off as more business over time.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

In Contractor for fallen Surfside condo later lost license amid fraud, negligence claims, the Miami Herald goes after one of the three contractors who built CTS. The first one quit when the penthouse was added, the second one (whose poor business practices are detailed in this piece) lasted only three months, and the last one finished up the job. All three are deceased.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Building Audits After Surfside Collapse Uncover Unsafe Structures, Violations When our building falls down, we want the government to have protected us and will blame it for having failed to do that. When our building has not fallen down, we want the government to stay out of our business, and drag out repairs for years and years.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

The Miami Herald article sure is interesting.

Reading between the lines, the last two contractors were window dressing for a non-contractor to run the job. That is my opinion. It certainly doesn't appear they were hired based on their record in the field.

NOT reading between the lines, I see that the permit fee was $13,121 (about$43,000 in today's money).

As I've mentioned before, since the Surfside part-time building inspector wasn't up to the task, that money could have been used to hire an outside inspector. I kinda think it SHOULD have. And I kinda wonder why it wasn't done.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Spsalso)

…since the Surfside part-time building inspector wasn't up to the task, that money could have been used to hire an outside inspector. I kinda think it SHOULD have. And I kinda wonder why it wasn't done.

To serve the greater good, the Miami Herald is helping to build the criminal negligence case against the Town of Surfside. The smaller the entity to take the fall, the more the Florida real estate market is protected. The Miami Herald has already done pieces on the Bad Developer, the Bad Architect, the Bad Engineer, the Bad Building Inspector, and now the Bad Contractor. It is becoming more clear that only one entity could have protected public safety, and that’s the Town of Surfside. I think that next they’re going to go hard against Ross Prieto and the town management.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Re liquefaction or other ground issues: There were some reasonable hypotheses in this area, but as the critical columns in the pool deck collapse appear to be intact, and the basement slab looked in good condition after the clearance, I think we can take any foundation-based theory off the table.

Re the concrete being apparently sub spec or degraded: why, then, is nobody scared about CTN? It was built pretty much at the same time by the same people, so if the worry is the structural elements of the building, you'd expect that to be true there, too (and in fact in every 1970s/80s reinforced concrete structure in the area ...).

> If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.

All the pool deck columns, and the ones under the surface parking like @AusG's photo, had their slab around the base. I'm sure NIST had a good look at those bits of slab before clearing the site.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Red Corona (Computer))

Re the concrete being apparently sub spec or degraded: why, then, is nobody scared about CTN? It was built pretty much at the same time by the same people, so if the worry is the structural elements of the building, you'd expect that to be true there, too (and in fact in every 1970s/80s reinforced concrete structure in the area ...).

Maybe people should be worried.

Beyond that, why was this particular building the one that failed? Did the crane accident during construction cause hidden damage and/or budget and time delay issues that resulted in more corners being cut? Were things learned in the construction of this building that were applied to subsequent buildings with regard to column size, etc? Did some event (construction next door, revisions to units, etc) push this building over the edge? Was maintenance just that shoddy?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (ACI)

ACI friends and colleagues,

Today, I am writing you to share the disappointing news that the ACI Concrete Convention planned for October 17-21 will transition from a hybrid event to a fully virtual one. With the rise in COVID-19 cases, it has become increasingly clear that a fully virtual ACI Concrete Convention will be safest for ACI members, attendees, and staff.

Just a few short months ago, we were excited at the opportunity to see each other again in Atlanta, GA – I know that I was, and I’m sure that you were, too. But rest assured that we are channeling that collective excitement into making the ACI Concrete Convention the most productive and best virtual event it can be. The ACI staff is now working with the ACI Georgia Chapter, convention sponsors, session speakers, and committee leaders to transition the event. While all details are not yet finalized, know that ACI will still be hosting committee meetings, informative technical/educational sessions, social activities, sponsor demos, celebrations, and the other activities that make our conventions special – albeit in a fully virtual format.

If you’ve already registered and/or reserved your hotel room, ACI will confirm if any action is needed and be in contact soon. ACI suggests that you cancel your travel plans. If you haven’t yet registered, now is the perfect time to register for the virtual ACI Concrete Convention (and take this opportunity to invite a friend or colleague to join you, too).

Thomas Concrete, Baker Concrete Construction, ConSeal, and 50+ additional companies and organizations have signed on as sponsors – I sincerely encourage you to view all sponsors, thank them, and support them as you are able.

Questions can be directed to [email protected]. Additional details will be posted to the ACI website when finalized, and we’ll be back in contact soon.

Sincerely,
Cary Kopczynski, PE, SE, FACI, FPTI
ACI President

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

I just uploaded my video this evening where I drove over to Champlain Towers North who has the same garage, next door to the collapse site last week, and recreated the tourist video in the daytime and even got cars coming out of the garage and the gate opening up so we could see all of the columns very well lit and back to the back wall to show like wherre the debris field was in the tourist video, which was shot 5 minutes before the condo collapsed. Here is a screenshot I made showing the columns:
.
.
.
.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Jeff M11.1 is rotated 90 degrees in north building. This column is 12 by 16. At south the wider 16 inches would be facing the ramp. In north the 12 is facing the ramp.

Technically this would require a much higher speed of vehicle impact to bottom shear the north M11.1 column. All the 11.1 columns are rotated in the north building.

Did they learn something in the process of building south?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Easier to park if you rotate the columns?

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

There must have been other reasons to rotate those columns, you only gain 4", not a big difference in parking

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Jeff,

Tell that to the folks who write the regulations on size of parking spaces. Depending on where you are, you can be off by an inch and fail.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Which failed first?
Well it can't be "22" at CTN, (which is "27" at CTS), because it was still standing in the tik tok video.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Red Corona)

Re liquefaction or other ground issues: There were some reasonable hypotheses in this area, but as the critical columns in the pool deck collapse appear to be intact, and the basement slab looked in good condition after the clearance, I think we can take any foundation-based theory off the table.

Re the concrete being apparently sub spec or degraded: why, then, is nobody scared about CTN? It was built pretty much at the same time by the same people, so if the worry is the structural elements of the building, you'd expect that to be true there, too (and in fact in every 1970s/80s reinforced concrete structure in the area ...).

> If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.

All the pool deck columns, and the ones under the surface parking like @AusG's photo, had their slab around the base. I'm sure NIST had a good look at those bits of slab before clearing the site.

The foundation was leaking and causing corrosion at the base of some of the columns. K and L where the standing water was had a lot of corrosion at the base.

As far as uneven subsidence, liquification or a sinkhole, those can probably be ruled out. I've seen no evidence of it and it is also not consistent with a collapse starting at the deck, it probably would have started on the more heavily loaded columns under the building if this were the case.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
Well, the slow boat from ACI arrived in the mail. It came well protected in a cushioned paper mailer and a flexible Blu-ray style box. The thumb drive itself is compact and folds, pocketknife style, into a sturdy steel key ring cover, perfect for taking to the job site.
It took a call to support. John promptly sent me a zip file of the latest .pdf files and now everything works fine. Please find an extract of a few pages attached. edit Images Only

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

The corrosion was likely caused by inadequate concrete strength coupled with inadequate concrete cover to the reinforcing. Even the later patch repair details didn't reflect good corrosion resistance.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
Here in the SF bay area, relocation often includes some allowance for relocation expenses paid buy the landlord.

#### Quote (California)

California Now Requires Relocation Assistance Payment to Tenants for Allowable No-Fault Evictions.

Although the new law essentially prohibits a California residential landlord from terminating a tenancy without just cause, as set forth above, there are some exceptions.

A Landlord may initiate a no-fault termination of tenancy with the payment of Relocation Assistance for any one of the following reasons:

The Owner seeks to owner-occupy the residential property, or have their spouse, domestic partner, children, grandchildren, parents or grandparents occupy the premises, but for leases entered into on or after July 1, 2020, owner occupancy shall only be allowed IF either: (a) the tenant agrees, in writing, to the termination, or (b) a provision in the lease allows the owner to terminate the lease if the owner, or their spouse, domestic partner, children, grandchildren, parents, or grandparents, unilaterally decides to occupy the Premises;
The Owner seeks to withdrawal of the residential property from the rental market;
The Owner is complying with any of the following: (a) a government order to comply that necessitates the tenant vacate the premises; (b) a government or court order; or (c) a local ordinance; OR
The Owner is seeking to demolish or substantially remodel the rental property (Note: substantial remodel is defined to mean upgrading structural, electrical, plumbing, or mechanical system that requires a permit from a governmental agency, or the abatement of hazardous materials, including lead-based paint, mold, or asbestos, in accordance with applicable federal, state, and local laws, that cannot be reasonably accomplished in a safe manner with the tenant in place and that requires the tenant to vacate the residential real property for at least 30 days. Cosmetic improvements alone, including painting, decorating, and minor repairs, or other work that can be performed safely without having the residential real property vacated, do not qualify as substantial rehabilitation.
The amount of relocation assistance, or rent waiver, required is one month's rent as in effect when the owner issued the notice to terminate the tenancy and must be paid to the Tenant within 15 calendar days of service of the Notice Terminating the Tenancy.
Some local jurisdiction demand more, for example 120% one months rent.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

Many thanks for posting the ACI thumb drive section, Charlie.
The section had reinforcing cover and placements defined, but no limits for column reinforcing.
Paragraph 7.7.5 addresses "corrosive environments or other severe exposure conditions" and suggests (? requires?) greater cover and more dense concrete or other protection.
If I recall, column design and limits of reinforcing was addressed in Chapter 10.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Vance Wiley (Structural)10 Sep 21 18:38)

If I recall, column design and limits of reinforcing was addressed in Chapter 10.
The paragraph numbers seem to have changed since 1977?
Please find attached a few page images from chapter 10.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

More shots fired at the NYT's article via Kilsheimer >>

Question of what caused Surfside, Florida, condo to collapse remains unresolved

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/09/10/surf-s...

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

That's it !!
Sectiom 10.9.1 LIMITS FOR REINFORCEMENT OF COMPRESSION MEMBERS.
10.9.1 Area of longitudinal reinforcement for non-composite compression members shall not be less than 0.01 not more than 0.08 times gross area Ag of section.

I see nothing mentioning lap zones. It is my thought that the columns that I have investigated so far met requirements of the then current ACI code as regards minimum and maximum amounts of main reinforcing.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Optical98)

More shots fired at the NYT's article via Kilsheimer >>

If he’s that wound about about the NYT, I can only imagine what he has to think about the jokers here!

#### Quote (Kilsheimer)

“You wouldn’t believe some of the stuff people are writing,”

Ain’t that the truth.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Spartan5)

If he’s that wound about about the NYT, I can only imagine what he has to think about the jokers here!
Ruptured aneurysm territory.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Jeff, 4 inches makes a huge difference to vehicle impact. 12 inches puts you around the 40km/h mark. 16 inches starts to make bottom shear impossible without high impact speeds. With increased concrete strength the required impact speed to bottom shear column increases exponentionally. If anything 12 inch column thickness is what I feel is a vulnerable weak state where vehicle impact data becomes impossible to ignore.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

OOPS. Spoke too soon.
The Commentary on Column Reinforcement in the 1977 ACY 318 DOES address a 4% maximum reinforcing limit as follows:
10.9.1 The percentage of reinforcement in columns should usually not exceed 4 percent if the column bars are required to be lap spliced.

So does the term "should usually" define a violation of the code?
I would point out that procedures are and were available to ensure good concrete and full bonding of reinforcing in areas of congestion and bars were spliced while in contact - but the use of such techniques was probably beyond the capability of the contractor, if other conditions and results are any indication.
Then the next point becomes 'did the escess reinforcing cause the collapse'?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
I thought we had been through this before...
A violation of the Commentary is not a violation of the code.
The 4% is so that the lap spices will not exceed 8%

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

If I am not mistaken, water has been spotted wicking it's way up rebar at the slab/column connections. Several columns also having fully rusted through rebar at the base. Not sure which columns, but it does seem to be situated around crowded columns.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Iirc the congestion issue arose not because it would by itself threaten the building but that crowded joints at the lower floors might present the contractor's people with excuses to leave out or mis-position some of the slab reinforcing at the column joints.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)10 Sep 21 20:46 I thought we had been through this before... A violation of the Commentary is not a violation of the code. The 4% is so that the lap spices will not exceed 8%)

Sorry - I missed the consensus on Commentaries. But as far as I know the "double area" of bars at a lap splice was not defined prior to ACI 318-77 and it was later editions which defined the reason and application, with the concern being congestion and correct concrete placement.
It is a fine point, but attorneys make their livings on fine points.
From the viewpoint of amount of effective reinforcing contributing to the performance of a column I do not see an issue. As one bar loses load in a lap splice the lapping bar gains force. And I note that tests of columns with 12% reinforcing effectively performed like those having reinforcing within current limits.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

…relocation often includes some allowance for relocation expenses paid buy the landlord.

Condo owners are not renters. The lawyer is proposing new laws to force property owners out of the property they own. This would set quite a precedent.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)10 Sep 21 21:42)

The lawyer is proposing new laws to force property owners out of the property they own. This would set quite a precedent.
Yes! I understand. I would think that a fair law would require the common area owner to compensate the condo owners at something like the fair market value, or if the common area owner has another condo building with available condos, provide condo owners with comprable condos.
An allowance for moving expenses should also be provided.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (AusG)

Iirc the congestion issue arose not because it would by itself threaten the building but that crowded joints at the lower floors might present the contractor's people with excuses to leave out or mis-position some of the slab reinforcing at the column joints.
That could be a very valid point. I still find it super odd that one of the repairs involved 3 #5 90* hooks to refasten the column to the pool deck. Could have just been no room for 4.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

Would not a Conco Owner's insurance policy provide moving expenses and cost of alternate housing for a period of repairs?
EDIT:
As a conco office owner the overall condo association policy covers the building shell and grounds and common areas and loss of rents, etc.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Demented)

If I am not mistaken, water has been spotted wicking it's way up rebar at the slab/column connections. Several columns also having fully rusted through rebar at the base. Not sure which columns, but it does seem to be situated around crowded columns.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)10 Sep 21 21:57 I still find it super odd that one of the repairs involved 3 #5 90* hooks to refasten the column to the pool deck. Could have just been no room for 4.)

Could you please show me where this detail is? Sounds interesting and I missed it.
Thank you,

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental))

The side of that column looks like it has been patched with some sticky repair patch.
The proper repair of rusted rebar and cracked concrete is to remove any loose concrete, clean rebar, coat rebar with coal tar epoxy, and patch concrete with hi adhesion high strength polymer modified concrete mortar. Proper prep is square edges, minimum depths, etc. Can't tell if the rebar was cleaned and coated. The bar we see is likely the bottom of the long column bar in the column section and it laps a dowel from below.
Thanks for the pic.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

I can't help but be amused that Kilsheimers recent comments were quoted in the World Socialist Web Site. They, at least, should understand large slabs of grey concrete.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (AusG)

… Kilsheimers recent comments were quoted in the World Socialist Web Site.

I was delighted to see that! Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide. I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)10 Sep 21 23:53)

...Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. ...trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story ALSO.

Miami-Dade is trying to hide:
The very scary truth that this building just fell down after 40 years, without any particular trigger.
That lots of condos in Florida were built under that same ethical environment. That CTS is not unique.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

I was delighted to see that! Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide. I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story.

Miami-Dade? You must mean NIST? What would Kilsheimer be doing or have done that they have not?

What’s concerning to me is that this building fell down under the watch of a consulting firm that was being paid $500,000 to assess, analyze, and ensure the structural integrity of the building. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13 #### Quote (WSWS) High-rise condominiums line the south Florida coastline one after another in tight succession. Asked if any of them may be in danger, Kilsheimer replied, “I must have been asked that question a thousand times. Until I can begin to investigate, I will not be able to answer it.” What happened at CTS has no bearing on that question. He says as much himself: #### Quote (WSWS) “Nobody can say that the concrete was the wrong strength or deteriorated. Nobody can say that the reinforcing steel was the wrong strength or had deteriorated. Nobody can say that the number of rebar that were in the deck was inadequate. Nobody can say the placement of the rebar in the deck was inadequate.” He concluded by plainly explaining, “Nobody can say the thicknesses of slabs were inadequate because no one has been able to sample and test any of that stuff.” That’s true at every one of the buildings he’s been asked about too until someone assessed each of those things. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13 (OP) #### Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental)11 Sep 21 01:38) What’s concerning to me is that this building fell down under the watch of a consulting firm that was being paid$500,000 to assess, analyze, and ensure the structural integrity of the building.
correct The firm did warn that the structural damage was increasing exponentially, but several have commented that there was no obvious evidence of immediate collapse. (Very Scary!

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Spartan5)

Miami-Dade is using the crime scene designation as the reason to bar Kilsheimer from working side by side with NIST. NIST is not preventing his participation, Miami-Dade is.

What does Miami-Dade gain by barring Kilsheimer in this unusual way? They know NIST will take years to publish a report, by which time nobody will care anymore (except this group, which will be on part 120.) Keeping Kilsheimer out will not protect Morabito, the Town of Surfside, the CTS Condo Board, or the people who collapsed the roof and backed their tar buggy through Column M11.1.

Apparently Miami-Dade believes that letting the Town of Surfside’s consulting engineer do his job, and possibly doing it faster than NIST does theirs, could complicate their ability to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be. Whatever their motivation, it makes them look like they are trying to hide something, and therefore costs them credibility.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

It IS odd that Miami-Dade does not appear to be able to articulate a crime related to the crime scene.

I can understand, in the first few days, that there surely does LOOK like there could be a crime. But you're not sure what. But after several weeks of careful cogitation, wouldn't you think their Crack Legal Minds might have found SOME crime that might have happened that they could describe. And share that, using real words.

"We're still investigating to see IF there was a crime." is always appealing. But isn't that SO much like pulling a kid over in his car and holding him for hours to "investigate"?

After awhile, it starts to smell.

What it does look like is that there could be an investigation by the Feds, prompted by one guy or gal who just won't leave things alone.

It's also curious that Miami-Dade couldn't escort Kilsheimer around the site to his heart's content. NO, you may not pick that up. YES, of course you can look at that. By now, it's awfully hard to believe he could mess up the crime scene, considering. WHAT would he have to DO?

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Miami-Dade is using the crime scene designation as the reason to bar Kilsheimer from working side by side with NIST. NIST is not preventing his participation, Miami-Dade is.

SNIP

Apparently Miami-Dade believes that letting the Town of Surfside’s consulting engineer do his job, and possibly doing it faster than NIST does theirs, could complicate their ability to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be. Whatever their motivation, it makes them look like they are trying to hide something, and therefore costs them credibility.

If NIST wanted Kilsheimer to participate, all they’d have to do is ask him. And if Kilsheimer has offered his services to assist NIST with their investigation and he’s still on the outside looking in, then… you tell me.

You really think NIST wants another team crawling around, moving and taking whatever they see fit?

The NIST report will be THE Report.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (spsalso)

It's also curious that Miami-Dade couldn't escort Kilsheimer around the site to his heart's content. NO, you may not pick that up. YES, of course you can look at that. By now, it's awfully hard to believe he could mess up the crime scene, considering. WHAT would he have to DO?
Why limit it to Kilsheimer? What if the board wanted to hire someone too? Or just let Morabito Consultants do a little more core drilling here and there. Or lawyers… they have engineers too. Maybe some former resident watched a PowerTube or five and decided what we really need to be doing is uncovering the wayward bungie-buggies? Where does it end?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Spartan5)

Where does it end?

Where Mr. Kilsheimer refuses to take direction. "Look, but do not touch." Is it that difficult?

On consideration, you might have a point that the "list" might keep growing until me and my dog show up.

So you figure "crime scene" really means "how about nobody?".

S'pose it works.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

2
Were sites at the collapse of structures like the WTC, Murrah Building, Minnesota I-35 bridge, and FIU bridge open to numerous investigative entities?

I feel like these events and others like them have always been the "tip of the spear" jurisdiction of agencies like NIST and NTSB, with various independent subconsultants then retained as required to contribute to a unified effort in the face of difficult, complicated circumstances.

For example, NIST states in its WTC report that it complemented in-house expertise with private sector technical experts. NTSB retained Wiss Janney Elstner to assist with the I-35 bridge effort. And so on and so forth.

That Kilsheimer is apparently on the outside looking in shouldn't be terribly surprising. What would be the rationale for his Surfside engagement to supersede NIST? What if NIST actually considered engaging his firm, or perhaps he offered to be a part of NIST's effort, and the terms simply didn't work? It happens. Hell as much as I myself would love to be able to assist and contribute to the effort, what would be my basis for complaining if I were denied?

For CTS, NIST and its network of related agencies and outside subconsultants constitutes a vast compilation of manpower and resources. Undoubtedly there are differing opinions, theories, models, and data born therein that must be vetted through. We're talking a fleet of licensed engineers and related professionals, each of whom bear the burden of maintaining standard of care in the face of a very high profile and complex structural disaster.

Any notion that there is some grand conspiracy just doesn't resonate with me. Instead I see a unified, organized, and measured agency response, with a pretty transparent chain of command.

If Kilsheimer was a cook that NIST thought they needed with them in the kitchen, he'd be there. His being left on the proverbial bench doesn't mean that strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

How about your allowed to live in a condo that may fall down in the future, but you cannot sell it or rent it? Maybe when major issues are found, either you fix them or you end up in such a state where you can't sell and can't earn money from it. Either you spend the money fixing or suffer such a financial state. Then if your building falls over, you really only have yourself to blame.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

When you're interested in buying a home, you can have a home inspection done. They are very thorough, of the issues found - the owner has to make repairs or offer allowances in the asking price.

These home inspectors may do something of the same in condos, but how qualified are they to find some of these type of issues? This has to be expanded upon. They also need to research previous building inspections and be allowed to access reserve fund status etc.

If the number of state, county or township inspections of these buildings is increased or more frequent (hopefully), and maintenance & repairs are not being kept up to par, this evaluation needs to be put on record at the tax assessment office.

Devaluation in public records would get everyone's attention.

Hope this makes sense...still on my 1st cuppa joe this fine morning o/

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

There are two separate things going on with the CTS collapse…1. a criminal investigation by police and 2. a forensic investigation of the building collapse. The issue here is a logical gap related to data access, not a conspiracy, for goodness’ sake!

If the police are conducting a criminal investigation, then they should bar all entities from access to the site and material until after they have finished their criminal investigation. Instead, Miami-Dade PD is apparently continuing to conduct its criminal investigation, and at the same time picking and choosing who gets access to data…so far it’s Yes to NIST and No to the Town of Surfside.

What is unprecedented in this situation is Miami-Dade’s inconsistent application of the rules of crime scene access. This unusual inconsistency raises the question of what Miami-Dade hopes to gain by obstructing the Town of Surfside from conducting its own investigation.

In the US there is no precedent for limiting forensic investigations after a building collapse…any public or private entity with an interest in understanding what happened and the means to engage a forensic engineer does so. The WTC collapse, for example, was investigated by multiple entities. Professional engineers seem to know how to work without stepping on each others’ toes…there is no record of issues between the various investigatory entities at the WTC.

I have so far not found a rule or law that prevents the Town of Surfside, Miami-Dade County/PD, the CTS Condo Board, etc. from engaging their own forensic engineers in an investigation. NIST is there because Congress realized after 9/11/2001 that there was no federal agency tasked with doing this kind of work…so they passed legislation designating NIST to do so with the ultimate objective being increased construction safety. But that doesn’t make NIST the official lead investigator if more than one investigation has been undertaken.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

The issue here is a logical gap related to data access, not a conspiracy, for goodness’ sake!

I must have misread this.

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

As for conflicts, this is what he wants to do:

#### Quote (WSWS)

We need to look at the under-slab drainage if there is one. We need to expose the pile caps, check the pile caps, the reinforcing of the pile caps. Then we have to shoot what amounts to sound waves down the piles and the outside of the piles to check the soil and the rock to see what is existing below the rock.

Then we need to take cores down the piles to see the condition of the piles themselves. That is a two-month process, pretty much, to do it thoroughly. Then you have to dewater the site while you are doing it because at high tide water comes in and it rains here all the time.

I ask again, what would he be doing that NIST isn’t?

It doesn’t seem far-fetched to me, the need for there to be controlled access to the site while NIST completes their investigation. And that if NIST wanted Kilsheimer there. He would be there.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Funny that they hauled away evidence during a police investigation... you'd think they would get their stories correct.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (dik)

Funny that they hauled away evidence during a police investigation... you'd think they would get their stories correct.
I know, right?

Round my parts, any time there’s a fatal car accident they leave the scattered remains of vehicles sitting where they stopped for months.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
IF NIST is like NTSB then entities can become parties to the investigation, if they abide by the rules of no press involvement till the NIST investigation is over. Surfside could and should be a party to the structural investigation, as they are providing records of the history of the regulation and inspection of the construction and modifications to the building. They are, we believe being very transparent.

edit(of course, Kilsheimer would have to keep quiet.)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Spartan5)

I must have misread this.
It seems so. Where I’m from, a conspiracy requires multiple parties. Miami-Dade, which is located in a part of Florida known historically for corruption, is a single party that is acting like it has something to hide. I am curious to understand why they are acting that way, instead of working to project an image of honesty and transparency as the Town of Surfside has been attempting, at least up until this re-zoning fiasco, to do. Maybe Miami-Dade simply needs a better PR crisis management team.

#### Quote (Spartain5)

…what would he be doing that NIST isn’t?
What does that matter? The point is that historically corrupt Miami-Dade is providing selective access to what their PD has flimsily designated a crime scene, and by doing so has set the County up for a Town of Surfside lawsuit to force access. Whatever the County’s objective, it seems so important to them that not only are they willing to appear to be corrupt and risk a lawsuit but also they have allowed their PD to all intents and purposes destroy their own crime scene. If forensic engineers had been in charge of that site, they wouldn't have allowed Miami-Dade to decontextualize the debris by rushing to scrape the site bare.

Two and a half months later, I’d like to know the status of the criminal investigation that requires the site and debris as evidence. When will the criminal investigation be completed, the crime scene tape removed, and a grand jury convened?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

How best could they have preserved the crime scene without destruction of it and continue the search and rescue/recovery effort?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
...just so you know I didn't pull the idea of the slab drop beam twistting out of my, aah "hat"...

#### Quote (The Washington Post)

The precise mechanics of that force could have taken several forms...
Or the collapsing deck could have acted like a wrench and twisted the drop beam to the point of “mutual destruction of both the beams and columns at those connection points,” said Joshua Porter of Consult Engineering in Punta Gorda, Fla.
How a collapsed pool deck could have caused a Florida condo building to fall

Joshua Porter (BuildingIntegrity) ( I didn't find the particular video where he say this)

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Where I’m from, a conspiracy requires multiple parties. Miami-Dade, which is located in a part of Florida known historically for corruption, is a single party that is acting like it has something to hide.

I must have misread this:

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Whatever the County’s objective, it seems so important to them that not only are they willing to appear to be corrupt and risk a lawsuit but also they have allowed their PD to all intents and purposes destroy their own crime scene. If forensic engineers had been in charge of that site, they wouldn't have allowed Miami-Dade to decontextualize the debris by rushing to scrape the site bare.
You sound entirely ignorant of the extensive amount of data NIST collected during that process, which they appeared to have controlled. Or you are intentionally ignoring it to shore up this conspiracy of yours.

NIST is there. Identifying, tagging, documenting, and collecting all that they need. In plain sight. You have seen this, right? Is it not on a spreadsheet somewhere?

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/07/upda...

#### Quote:

NIST staff members are coordinating and leading remote sensing efforts to determine where pieces of evidence were located in the debris pile. They are supported by experts from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), Florida State University, the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Department, the National Science Foundation (NSF), the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS).

“ If forensic engineers had been in charge of that site…”

IF??? You act like NIST is hanging out at the landfill trying to capture select bits from the trucks before dumped. That NIST article is the EXACT opposite of what you’ve described, a la “they have allowed their PD to all intents and purposes destroy their own crime scene.” Come off it already.

Has NIST logged any complaints about the county’s handling of the site and destruction of evidence? They must be part of the conspiracy too. Along with the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Sep 21 18:27)

How best could they have preserved the crime scene without destruction of it and continue the search and rescue/recovery effort?
Good question (I believe the search and rescue people knew that there were no survivors at the point they demolished the west wing.) The surprise urgency of the demolition is "intriguing?". Residents of the west wing thought they had 2 or 3 weeks to act, and then CTS was coming down "tomorrow". I'm not clear what was gained by the "hasty" action. (maybe the hurricane would have destabilized the building, making it dangerous to demolish?) Anyway, I'm in no position to second guess the recovery effort.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental)11 Sep 21 18:44)

...the extensive amount of data NIST collected during that process, which they appeared to have controlled.
Somehow, all the video they have released is of NIST wandering around closely examining columns that have be remove by excavators after cleaning the site. They make clear in the sound bites they released, that the search and rescue was in control of the site and that they worked around them, but I never saw them in video anywhere but outside the perimeter.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
conspiracy Police paid by politicians reelected with donations from developers, contractors, building supply suppliers, realtors, etc. and paid their salaries out of property taxes collected.

edit ...even the governor stepped in to control the narrative from day one, how different than the FIU bridge press conferences

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

Good question (I believe the search and rescue people knew that there were no survivors at the point they demolished the west wing.) The surprise urgency of the demolition is "intriguing?". Residents of the west wing thought they had 2 or 3 weeks to act, and then CTS was coming down "tomorrow". I'm not clear what was gained by the "hasty" action. (maybe the hurricane would have destabilized the building, making it dangerous to demolish?) Anyway, I'm in no position to second guess the recovery effort.
The remaining structure was unstable and swaying already without tropical storm force winds. There were fears that higher winds, and even more rain, could have toppled the remaining structure onto the existing rubble pile, making any efforts even more difficult in retrieving souls/bodies. Thankfully the storm missed.

Edit:
As corrupt as I want to scream Miami-Dade is, that's probably more going to lean on the side of it just simply being prime real estate.
A town official and the engineering firm behind the renovation work were on the property the day before the collapse in the early AM hours. Nothing was reported to have been out of the ordinary, despite it being fact that the work was completed before the permit was granted. Also with the quickly discovered history of certain building officials, the town itself kinda got put under the search light. Kilsheimer might not like it, but there's a good chance he's just dealing with a conflict of interest due to who hired him being under investigation. I'm all for crazy conspiracies but I just don't think things are being covered up by Miami-Dade.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Sep 21 19:41)

making any efforts even more difficult in retrieving souls/bodies. Thankfully the storm missed.
Yes
edit

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Sep 21 19:41)

that's probably more going to lean on the side of it just simply being prime real estate.
Yes again

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (a conspiracy requires multiple parties)

I'm not into conspiracies... just corrupt/shady government... fact, not conspiracy.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Conspiracy. Corruption.

Potayto. Potahto.

I'm simply saying that, with regards to some of the discourse on this thread, the sensationalism is shape-shifting.

Originally it was talk of rolls of tar paper on the roof being the smoking gun for pool deck collapse. And now that folks seem to have exhausted their Rube Goldberg-like imaginations, the conversation has morphed into evidence tampering and jurisdictional scheming.

It's more entertainment than it is engineering at this point.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

The word Conspiracy has been used on this forum 465 times.
The word Corruption has been used on this forum 426 times.

These words are thrown around to gaslight and discourage open discourse and a free exchange of ideas. I haven't seen any sensationalism. And any serious investigation will put all possibilities on the table and vet each one.

We can't pretend that money and politics could not play a roll here, in what happened, who gets access and what gets told to the public.

98 lives were lost 3 months ago, many more lives permanently turned upside down..
They deserve better than the juvenile behavior and mockery that keeps coming from the same people on here.
No one on here knows what exactly happened nor has anyone license to try and shutdown open and honest inquiry on this thread.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

What we are suffering from is a lack of new material to work on. There are no published tables and formulae for the motivations and trustworthiness of the agencies at work, so personal perceptions take over, in which we all ... draw different lines and arrows on our PowerPoint... In short, let's wait until something new turns up with a degree of faith in our ability to assess it when it does.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Optical98 (Computer)11 Sep 21 22:00)

No one on here knows what exactly happened nor has anyone license to try and shutdown open and honest inquiry on this thread.
Yes First Thank you for posting links to articles of interest!
What I haven't seen recently is open and honest inquiry into what exactly happened.
There are posts here about the tips of the remaining columns in pool deck area.
There are posts about how the pool deck collapse pulled down the center façade of the south face of the north wing.
Let's talk about these? or any other aspect of what exactly happened?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)12 Sep 21 01:59 318-1971 Commentary excerpt from chapter 10)

YEOMAN WORK, CHARLIE. MANY THANKS!!!
And a gold star.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)12 Sep 21 14:45)

Contractor to certify & verify, in writing, to this engineer, that the existing cons. slab is 12" thick prior to installing awning.
Wow, do we have a date?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

That specific note, sometime in July 2004 likely.
Permit 04-00000469

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Demented (Industrial)12 Sep 21 17:20)

That specific note, sometime in July 2004 likely.
Thanks

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

Wow, do we have a date?

WOW? I thought we were expecting 9.5 inches of structural concrete, then at least 2 or 2.5 inches of topping concrete?
So if it's less than 12, call the engineers so they can evaluate it seems like pretty standard stuff to me.
Then they chip off the tile and sand and bolt directly to the 11.625 inch slab.
If I was the contractor I would just call the Engineer to get a clarification of what he expected and what I found.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Nukeman948

Careful or we'll get 10 more posts of the ACI Code book..

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

#### Quote (Optical98)

Careful or we'll get 10 more posts of the ACI Code book..

I have no problem with the "free and open exchange of ideas". If it takes 10 more posts because some people want to be cryptic and mysterious, that's fine with me. But I can't engage in honest discussion without knowing what the issue is here.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Nukeman

Like the mysterious P column or "What's Waldo"?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (Optical98 (Computer)2 Sep 21 03:16)

Also, did we ever decide what these items on the roof were, this is a satellite photo est date 6/22/21, showing the roofing crane as roof work was still in progress.
What is that large round silver object?
Did we ever get an answer? UFO?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

SFCharlie

Now...10 days later you're asking me this? I didn't see a response. But the picture I added with my question wasn't high res to say the least.
So Unidentified Object, Not flying.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

Isn't E just the HVAC unit which sat on top of the red framework (D)?

Note the red framework has been flipped upside down (the short beams running up/down the page hung under the long beams running left/right across the page).

Unidentified object E is then the HVAC unit, smashed and split open along the seams.

Check the photo provided by Demented (3rd post, part 9) for reference.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)

#### Quote (RandomTaskkk (Structural)13 Sep 21 14:39)

Isn't E just the HVAC unit which sat on top of the red framework (D)?
I think you're right, Thanks

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13

(OP)
In my attempts to ID stuff in Debris, I made these:

SF Charlie
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